337 pilots- advice sought.

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se7en
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337 pilots- advice sought.

Post by se7en » Wed May 28, 2003 10:11 am

Hi Guys, Having never owned a 337 and only having driven a 20VT, I need some advice regarding suspension tuning on a 337. Givens:!, car must retain 18" wheels.2, car must retain standard 337 ride height. Owner was not impressed with ride quality of lowered specimens with Boutique type kits(H&R etc).3, Owner wants improved turn in quality, similar to a good A2 16v.4, owner wants higher damper and spring rates in front. I would not suggest a front only increase myself.Intended use:1, Rare autox use.2, Rare track.3, Mountain road/switchback use is primary .Equipment:1, 28mm rear anti roll bar.2, front and rear stress bars.3, 39F 36R tire pressures on unspecified brand.4,stock springs/dampers at the mo.5, Above factory power.Any and all input from 337 dual duty owner drivers would be appreciated.I can provide generic advice, but am interested inspecifics. No vortex referrals please.Ta. mark.

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (se7en)

Post by Z eng VR6 » Wed May 28, 2003 11:25 am

well first of all, when doing handling, you are going to sacrifice some ride quality. in order to keep the car from feeling like a limp noodle!!and secondly, there is now way that the mk4 will ever feel like a a2, for the sheer fact that the thing is like twice it's size.

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (Z eng VR6)

Post by Grip Driver » Wed May 28, 2003 12:00 pm

and secondly, there is now way that the mk4 will ever feel like a a2, for the sheer fact that the thing is like twice it's size.
Not true danielson, you need to learn a bit more about suspension tuning. You can make any car handle, just takes the proper components and lots of testing.
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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (Driftin GTI)

Post by Z eng VR6 » Wed May 28, 2003 6:47 pm

and secondly, there is now way that the mk4 will ever feel like a a2, for the sheer fact that the thing is like twice it's size. Not true danielson, you need to learn a bit more about suspension tuning. You can make any car handle, just takes the proper components and lots of testing.
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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (Z eng VR6)

Post by Trevor57 » Wed May 28, 2003 7:29 pm

Hey, sounds like all of my customers. This guy needs a dose of reality.Tell him to suck it up. If you want good handling you will have a stiffer ride. There is going to be a give and take.

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (TheLoudBlackGolf)

Post by Z eng VR6 » Wed May 28, 2003 7:33 pm

Hey, sounds like all of my customers. This guy needs a dose of reality.Tell him to suck it up. If you want good handling you will have a stiffer ride. There is going to be a give and take.
yeah just give him a good and send him on his way!!

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (se7en)

Post by Djazair » Wed May 28, 2003 7:59 pm

Weight and weight distribution are the most important fundamentals of handling, but this you can't change, so unfortunately I don't think it will handle like a A2. But the 337 has some better things going for it. It's wider tires help to balance off the higher weight, but it won't be as nimble as a light weight car. Also chassis stiffness is lightyears ahead of the A2 which certainly helps. Enough rambling...Design the suspension around the tires. Maximizing the tire contact patch is how you will get the most out of your car. Front strut cars need a lot of negative camber because of the horrible positive camber gain with this design, but you pay for that in tire wear. To counter that, use a super stiff suspension to prevent too much suspension travel, but you'll need super sticky tires to prevent sliding all over. Big sway bars may cure excessive roll, but they make your suspension less "independent".All in all I think the 337 has a very good stock suspension, especially if it's going to be driven primarily on public (potentially bumpy) roads. You might have to spend a lot to improve it. However, riding in it, I thought the front struts had too much compression damping, seen in tire hop in tight turns. A nice autox style alignment will definitely help turn-in and that rear sway bar will help balance the inherent understeer of front wheel drive. I have no real first hand experience with this car since I don't own one, but this is my 2 cents.Good luck!

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (se7en)

Post by three37 » Thu May 29, 2003 8:37 am

2, front and rear stress bars.
Don't waste your money on stressbars on the MkIV chassis. It's plenty stiff already and the 337 and newer MkIV's have extra brackets between the front strut tower and the firewall. Rear suspension is a completely different animal as the shock/spring combination in prior chassis has been separated. The major spring forces are now concentrated in the floorpan, not the rear shock tower (i.e. a rear stressbar up top is not really necessary).As far as street use goes, I would leave the 337/20AE cars alone (maybe get lighter wheels for the 20AE -- the OZ wheels are a bit on the heavy side ~26-28lbs??). The only change I would make is to find some negative camber somewhere thru the use of an offset upper bushing (Specialty Products makes one) and the Audi TT lower control arms (contact Mike Potter at Parts4VWs). He used this combination to get somewhere around -1.7 degrees on the front of a MkIV car.Add a rear bar to taste. I find the 337 very well balanced (for a VW) compared to my prior experience in a 98 GTI VR6. You can easily change the handling by running up the rear tire pressure. I found myself "dancing" (light understeer to light oversteer) the car thru the turn 8-9 section of Gingerman by modulating the throttle ever so slightly. This was in a bone stock 337 on the Michelin Pilots.The Pilots are really good tires for dry handling. A step up may be the Pilot Sport Cup tires. Eric Kuhns would be the person to contact about the Sport Cup tires as he put several hours of track time on them recently. [Modified by three37, 10:48 AM 5/29/2003]
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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (Djazair)

Post by three37 » Thu May 29, 2003 8:47 am

However, riding in it, I thought the front struts had too much compression damping, seen in tire hop in tight turns.
While spring rate and shock damping are factors in tire hop, driveline slop probably is more of an issue. Tightening up the engine mounts has a bigger effect. The easiest is to replace the bushings in the dogbone mount with something harder that the "gummybear consistency" OE bushings. To go all out, you can get the VW Racing motor mounts and dogbone at Parts4VWs.
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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (three37)

Post by Eric Kuhns » Fri May 30, 2003 10:37 pm

The July European Car has a nice article on MkIV suspension tuning, and also has a great article comparing the 4 generations of GTI's (they picked the 337 as the best BTW). 337's have set FTD in stock form (except R compound tres) in both CVO autocrosses, so it's pretty capable stock.That said, a few mods could do what your customer is asking. The most important is a rear antisway bar, as Eric van der May recommended above. The Neuspeed bar is nice because it's adjustable. Also, VW motorsport bushngs for the MkIII will fit. These will likel degrade rde quality, though. The offset strut bushing and TT lower control arm sounds very interesting. I wonder if anyone can still get early TT "MkI" lower control arms with the stiffer bushings. My old TT had that set up, and turned in notably better than later TT's I test drove. I actually searched out a pre-recall used TT just for that reason. Hmmm, Iwonder if I could talk the guy I sold my TT to get the recall done, so I could swipe those lower control arms..... but I digress. A good set of stiffer shocks (e.g. Konis) would help as well. [Modified by Eric Kuhns, 10:42 PM 5/30/2003]
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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (Eric Kuhns)

Post by se7en » Sat May 31, 2003 8:10 am

thanks for the responses.The owner notes , "Currently the car CAN NOT handle tight turns at speed. it plows and the [(inside) his typo] collapses(sometimes even hitting the bumpstop)." Note his mods in the opener.I can't picture that scenario on the public thoroughfare with the mods currently on the car, and I don't see your unmodded machines having that problem at our events.I want to say the car is being overdriven.He also has a modded Mk2 16v.It probably goes w/o saying that you guys make allowances for handling deficiencies and drive around them.mark

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (se7en)

Post by Eric Kuhns » Sat May 31, 2003 3:37 pm

Can this guy makeit to a CVO autocross - we'd be glad to show him a few 337 amking tight turns quite nicley.
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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (Eric Kuhns)

Post by se7en » Sun Jun 01, 2003 6:45 am

That would be the best I reckon, but he's in 'Frisco.

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought. (se7en)

Post by Z eng VR6 » Sun Jun 01, 2003 2:48 pm

i am sure that there is more than one 337 out there so i would say have him hook up with someone to show him his options


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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought.

Post by valladar » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:52 am

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought.

Post by valladar » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:07 pm

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought.

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought.

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought.

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought.

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought.

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Re: 337 pilots- advice sought.

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